TRANSCRIPT:

Joe Leszner: Acknowledgement, Acceptance & Authenticity

INTRO: Hello Archery Family! I'm Manisha and welcome to the Archery Parent Podcast. What you need to know to best support your Archer. Archery life can come at you quickly and there are often a lot of questions, but not a lot of answers. We are here to change that. We will share tips, how to’s and what to expect to help you navigate your new Archery lifestyle.

You'll hear from other Archery parents, coaches, and Archers, themselves. We are going to do this one arrow at a time.

Hello Archery family. I'm Manisha of the Archery Parent Podcast, what Archery parents need to know to best support their Archer. Today we have Joe Leszner, Mental Performance Coach for a number of teams around Canada. Joe, welcome to the podcast.

Joe: Thanks so much for having me. It's great to be here.

Manisha: So we are going to talk about some concepts of mental performance.

Many people might recognize your face from a lot of World Archery coverage, but we'll get to that a little bit later perhaps.

Joe: Sure, sure, no problem.

Manisha: So let's talk about some concepts you work with, with your clients.

What is the goal of achieving a "net neutral"? What does that mean?

Joe: I think just when you're a parent working with an Archer, or any athlete I should say, your goal should really - to have as little as impact on their performance as possible.

Ideally, obviously, you have a positive impact, but parents can be, even if you're the best parent ever, you're so kind, you're nice, you're super, there's no expectations, right? You just want them to have fun. You can have all of that out there and you can still put pressure on, on your child. Really, the goal is to find a way to have, as, you know, neutral of an impact as possible with, you know, one of your kids who's an athlete, because it's very difficult to try and have a positive impact and a simple question like, "how are you feeling today,” before a competition, like, does that really serve value to the performance of the athlete? I mean, I'm not saying it doesn't, but often, I mean, it doesn't really matter; asking those types of questions when you're about to perform.

You know, maybe a more appropriate question is: "Did you follow your plan today?" You know, something that's a little bit more fact-based, like, yes, "I did".

Rather than going, how do I feel today? Because at some point it doesn't totally matter. I mean, you're going to go and do it anyways. It'd be great if you go, I feel great, but also you could feel great and perform terribly and, you know, you don't have to feel good to be good.

So, um, yeah, I would say that's sort of my thoughts on that.

Manisha: And we're going to talk about “you don't need to feel good to perform well”. You've mentioned "the plan" that's going to come up a few times during this podcast episode.

What is a “plan”? What is it when you're asking your Archer: “Did you stick to your plan” or “what is your plan”?

Joe: Sure. A plan could be a variety of different things, right? It's going to have a variety of different components as well. It's going to have technical things, it's going to have mental things. There's probably aspects in the lead up from the physical side and also in the warm-up on the physical side.

And then, you know, maybe a little bit overlooked in Archery, a little bit, but there's also still a tactical side. Like you're obviously not drawing up X's and O's and you're not competing against an opponent, but there is definitely still some strategy within the sport of Archery.

And, so a plan's going to incorporate all of those different things. From my side, it's going to, you know, involve a variety of different tools and it's going to be different depending on who you are and what you're working on.

It could incorporate, you know, potentially some mindfulness stuff. It could incorporate the use of journaling. I mean, it really could be anything. But from my side, that's what I would be focusing on. And then, you know, obviously working in a team environment, we come together, bring the pieces together and, and executing that plan, and then you do it.

I think it's kind of as simple as that, but, I'd also say I'm fairly pragmatic and practical in nature. Like, let's follow a set of steps and then we're going to see what happens and once we see what happens, we're going to make a new set of steps and follow those as well. So....

Manisha: I didn't really get you to introduce yourself, so can you introduce yourself?

Who have you worked with and who are you working with now?

Joe: Sure. So my formal introduction, my name is Joe Leszner. I am a Certified Mental Performance Consultant. I've been doing this for about, I don't know, six-ish, seven years now. Yeah, and, and I've been fortunate to work with, Olympic and Paralympic athletes for almost, you know, the whole time I've been out of school.

So I was working with wheelchair basketball, for Canada, obviously, I guess for those who, aren't in Canada. So working with them through Tokyo and, and Paris and then, you know, worked with Archery as well, supported them virtually in Tokyo, was there in Paris, and then continuing to support them on the way to, to LA although very far away.

Manisha: Yeah, that's maybe the basic facts. So you've been working with Archery Canada. And you've been really pivotal as the evolution of the team has gone on. You've worked with several of Archery Canada's national and international Archers, and even those that are coming up in the development.

I just really, really want to stress how important a Mental Performance Consultant is when you're going up into those high performance levels. Let's talk about when someone says, "I'm nervous" versus, "I'm nervous and this is bad".

Joe: Mm.

Manisha: Especially on the Archery line. Talk about that.

Joe: Hmm. I don't know if it makes too much of a difference to me.

If they say they're nervous, I mean, being nervous is a totally normal experience. No problem. Like, you should feel nervous. It is the natural reaction to performing, right? You're putting yourself on the line, you're being vulnerable, you're putting yourself out there, you're going to feel nervous, right?

If we're judging nerves as a bad thing, especially if we're on the line, I mean, I don't know if I'm doing anything in particular to maybe try and solve that problem in the moment rather than acknowledge how they're feeling and let's re-orient to the task. I think bigger picture, it's about, you know, helping athletes reframe the feelings that they're having and that it really, I say, it doesn't matter how you feel.

Obviously we care. We're empathetic, you know. I care how people feel. It's like the feeling does not match with what's going on. So if we're judging a feeling is bad, is it really bad? You know, and nerves can be caused by a lot of things. It can be you doing really well. It could be you doing really poorly.

It's probably tied to a variety of different expectations that you have for yourself. Are those expectations even fair to set? Right? There'd be a lot of bigger picture questions that I would probably dive into off the line, but if we're in the moment, I mean, there's nothing really you can do, but just shoot the arrows.

So it's pretty, it's pretty simple. You stand on the line, you shoot some arrows, you're going to walk to the target, you're going to get them, and you're going to do it all over again. I think it's, you know, in that moment being there for the athletes and stuff and doing your best to support them however you can.

Maybe it's a joke, maybe it's just bringing them back to their plan. Who knows? Or maybe it's just a terrible day and they're nervous and it just all sucks. And that happens, too. And it, it really, in the big picture, it's no problem, right? It's all part of the experience.

Manisha: But when they're taking that and saying, this is bad, what is the chance of it actually leading to other thoughts that can be negative, resulting in negative performance?

So if they're labeling it.

Joe: Yeah. Yeah. It can definitely lead to a bit of a spiral. You definitely want to try and cut that off as much as you can. Again, if, if you're talking about an athlete who has zero training, I mean, it's going to be almost impossible to help them in that moment. Because they have nothing to rely on. They've got no tools.

The labeling's like an interesting - like labeling an emotion is a very valuable skill to reduce the intensity of the emotion, right? And it allows you to simply acknowledge the sensations that you're experiencing and proceed with the information that you have, right?

And it'd be like a very mindful approach, but a very valuable thing to regulate an emotion. But there's also the balance of then when you identify with the label, that can pose a challenge. Like, you know, “I choke under pressure”, for example. That label does nothing for you.

It's more of a story that we're telling ourselves that, you know, as natural as a sports fan, right? We want to tell these stories of, oh, I had one arrow left, I need to shoot a nine to win. Everyone's watching, right? All that stuff. And sure those moments can happen, but, looking at it that way creates these moments of I'm a clutch performer or, you know, I'm not able to perform or, you know, the classic target panic thing.

So there's a point where the label, although is helpful and can provide value, like once we start identifying with it, it can become extremely challenging, and it's very difficult for us to break the cycle at that point. And then comes the variety of different thoughts, like, "I'm not good enough." "Will I ever be good enough?" "I can never do this."

I mean, the amount of people I've talked to who are like, "I can never make it past the first round." It's like, why does that even matter? Who cares? Like, it's all thresholds. "I've never shot a 660 before." Cool. Like, they're just thresholds that we create, but really it doesn't matter.

You'll shoot a 660 and you'll go. Well, I never shot a 670, right? And eventually get to a point where the margin of error is so low, that you can't even have an expectation like that anymore. I think it's a balance between noting something and labeling it versus creating an identity with it, whether it's a score, a feeling, and emotion, et cetera. It can be challenging.

Manisha: How long would it take for someone to get to the point where they can acknowledge either an emotion or an occurrence such as the arrow going in the wrong place that they don't want it to go to, opposed to acknowledging but not judging.

Joe: Hmm.

Manisha: Some people think that, you know, I saw a Mental Performance Consultant once, like, when does it start working? I know everybody's different, but acknowledging without judging, that's a huge concept. Outdoors, you've got, you know, 72 chances. How do you move on? How do you do that?

Joe: Sure. Yeah. I mean, it's obviously different for everyone. I, I'd say the general rule is you’ve got to do the work and just believe in it and see what happens. Like, there's no - there's never a guarantee of success in anything. Like, you have to really go for it and put yourself out there. But like, it doesn't have to take a year. It also isn't going to necessarily just take one hour conversation with me or someone in my field. I think it's something that requires practice and training and also it's when you kind of figure it out, right? You've got to also be willing to.

Okay, I'm actually going to try this right now. I'm going to go for it. I'm going to use these skills.

And then you get validated at some point and then you're like, oh, that kind of worked, that kind of made things easier. And even if your score's not better, you're well, that was a lot simpler. I think that's when you start to see the change.

Sometimes I've worked with an athlete and it's been a couple sessions and it's like, okay, this is fun. Other times it's taken forever, you know?

This idea of not judging is, is very simple in principle, but very difficult. I mean, what is so special about an arrow? Like you shoot at the target, there's a result.

Your body has a natural reaction to it because you go, okay, there's a result, and then it's nothing. Then you move on to the next one. There's tons of margin for error, right? Unless your expectation is I have to shoot a 680 or a 690 every time, which would be very silly, but if it was, sure, your margin for error is super low, but the reality is, it's easier once you start to break down why do I even put emphasis on these things?

Does it even matter what my qualification score is? And at some point it doesn't. Like, yes, you need to make a cut, and yes, you want to put yourself in a decent position, right? It's a very competitive sport, right?

You're shooting within the 60s, 70s, like, you're going to be okay, at least, on the men's side. Women's even better, right? So - and once you look at it that way, like who cares if you shoot an eight? Like, it doesn't really matter. You can still qualify good enough, make it to the matches, go on a run. And I mean, what's the goal of shooting a match, right? I mean, you're shooting three arrows.

You know what the score is half the time. You know what your opponent's shooting, you know what you need to score. And if you're in the process of judging an arrow all the time, it gets incredibly difficult. Like, what are you supposed to do? Like again, you go, I need to shoot an eight. Once you say, "I need", you are screwed, like nothing's going to go well after that.

Rather than, “what you do need to do is…” - you need to shoot the arrow just like you shot every arrow in your life, and letting your body do it.

So, again, from the training side, I mean a lot of it can be practiced just with meditation. I mean, it's simply the idea of "I'm going to focus on my breath", right, which would be a single-point focus meditation. So you're going to focus on your breath. You notice that you get distracted at some point, you acknowledge that you got distracted, and you go right back to your breath.

And, Archery can be the same exact thing. You shoot an arrow, okay, great, you're setting up, Oh, I got distracted. I have a thought.

Whether it's an expectation, a feeling, blah, blah, blah. Distracted by the environment, and you go, okay, I got distracted. And, and you move forward. So simply just noting what happens is a very useful skill. Does it take practice? Yes. Can it work very quickly? Sure. I mean, it all depends. But if you don't put yourself out there and you're really willing to fail and accept that, okay, I had a bad performance, it's going to be hard to really know if something worked.

You've got to kind of, go for it and go, okay, if I'm not perfect, it's going to be okay. And for a lot of, especially in this sport, very scientific people definitely know the math. And you know, in a way it is a sport of perfection and people are designed to think that way. It can be very difficult to shake that type of thought.

Manisha: How much does fear play into all of this?

Joe: I guess it plays a decent amount. Again, it's, it's so individualized. Yeah. Some people not at all, but yeah, I mean, fear of failure, fear of making mistakes, fear of what other people think. Fear of letting people down. I mean, these are common ones that come up and for some athletes can be quite debilitating.

That belief can lead to an expectation. That expectation creates, you know, a rigid process. No room for failure, right? Then it leads to probably you letting down when you're shooting and hesitating and questioning what you're doing. And even though you're probably fine, you're still making adjustments, right?

So you shoot a nine one time and you're, you're changing your sight because you're like, oh, that's not good enough. You know, rather than just going, maybe it just landed there, you know? And you start losing the fact that, okay, you shoot in groups versus, well, that arrow wasn't where it needed to be. And so I think that's how fear can, can play a role in it.

Does every athlete experience that? No. But it's definitely common, and especially when you're talking about, like the team side of Archery, right? Everyone is really doing their individual job and it leads to this team aspect right? It's not like hockey or basketball or, or soccer or anything like that where you're actively working together, right?

And you are trying to execute a plan at the same time. I mean, Archery, your job is to shoot your arrow and then you let your teammates shoot the arrow. That can lead to a lot of different challenges with team dynamics of letting people down. And, you know what your role is and you know that you’ve got to shoot a good score and then you're not able to shoot good score.

And, yeah, I'm sure a lot of people can relate to that. I think that's where maybe you see it, really stand out more often. But again, everyone's a bit different. If you do the work, you're probably not struggling with that as much when you're on the line by yourself.

Manisha: Now I just want to bring forward something that you mentioned that “you don't have to feel good to shoot well”, or “you don't have to feel good to be good”.

We have seen Archers say either they don't feel well because they're sick or they don't feel well, or just because, you know, it's just that kind of day. But they excel.

Talk about “you don't have to feel good to, to be good”.

Joe: Sure. Yeah. I mean, so if I - my take on sort of - if we're talking about how to perform under pressure, right? The job is to perform to your capabilities regardless of the context. So we're not trying to be anything different than what we are.

The goal is to be yourself, who you are authentically. In any context. So again, and that's important to clarify because if you are someone who shoots a 610 or something regularly, then you should shoot a 610 in all sorts of contexts. And if you do that, great.

Do we want to strive to overachieve? Obviously. And I think in Canada, it's a big objective of ours to always try and do that, but it's not realistic, right? The goal is to perform to your capabilities. So then when you talk about not feeling good, whatever, I mean, the feelings do not match the execution. The job is something you’ve - you've practiced this motor skill over and over and over again, and Archery is so practical.

It's so simple, right? And your body knows what to do. You don't need to hijack it, right? And, it, it doesn't matter how you feel internally. It just really doesn’t. I think those who are successful can just say it's true, right? People feel like you have to feel good, but you really don't because it's normal to experience all these emotions. Why wouldn't you, right? Why wouldn't you feel nervous?

If you're at the Olympics and there's 10,000 people cheering for you, why wouldn't you feel some excitement? Right? And at the end of the day, you're just shooting six arrows. You walk. You get the arrows. You come back. You shoot six arrows, and you do it over and over and over again.

And you can do that no matter how you feel, right? Like you really can. The trick is to not get in the way of your, of your body doing its job, right? And often people tend to overthink in those moments, but it’s - it really doesn't matter. I mean, you - there's so many examples in sports of people, you know, maybe like the classic ones like Michael Jordan, basketball, and his flu game, right?

Like, he felt terrible and then has this amazing performance. I mean, your body knows what to do. And it's about just letting it do what it needs to do. And I think that's the whole challenge in Archery. Like, just let your body shoot. You don't need to do anything in particular, but just shoot the arrow.

But again, the expectations. How you're feeling in that moment can start to over control the execution. You start focusing a little bit too much on technique and now you’re - you've hijacked a, a very automatic response and what did that do for you? You know, it's not very helpful at all. You'll probably shoot worse.

You'll definitely be miserable. So even if you shoot an okay score, you definitely didn't have fun doing it the whole time. In some ways it's kind of as simple as that. Like, it just doesn't really matter.

I think about a parent or something and they were super sick and you said, but your kid really needs you to pick them up from school today. You have to get all this done. Would the parent say, no, I can't do it? No. You'll say it. Sure, I'll do it. It'll suck and I'm going to do it. Great. It's no different, right?

Your body knows what to do. It's capable for sure. if you're actually sick it's going to - you’ve got to stay more hydrated probably. Right? It might impact your muscles. There's other challenges that you're going to face and then we can accept that there's going to be a greater margin for error and you're still going to be able to perform well.

Again, at some point you're going to perform to your capabilities. If you're not good enough to compete at a World Cup, you are not good enough to be at a World Cup. There's no mental thing that's going to solve that problem. Although if you do the work, maybe it does enhance your score, right? You are able to shoot higher scores, then maybe you are able to compete.

But when you're there, you are who you are, and the goal is to be that person.

Manisha: So you've mentioned in the past the "Archer's Kryptonite" with regards to predictability, predicting outcome. Can you expand on that and what is the "Archer's Kryptonite"?

Joe: Well, I think judging scores is a pretty challenging thing. I've sort of said it. It, it doesn't really matter the score that you shoot. It doesn't matter in some ways where the arrow lands. So what matters is, did it hit the target more than anything? The judgment is always more harmful than where the arrow lands almost every time.

How you react to it is more - can be way more harmful than, oh, I didn't shoot that perfectly. And in, in some ways, we should get used to not shooting things perfectly. You won't have perfect technique all the time. And if you can find a way to shoot a good arrow, even when you don't have good technique, I mean, you're going to be an amazing Archer. Right?

And I think that's the, the feel of it all. So the people who are very mathematic and objective, and I have to execute my technique this way every time, no matter what. And then we see an arrow and, and that's going to lead to a lot more judging, versus an Archer who is I'm going to figure out how to just shoot it every time.

And sure, sometimes it won't be perfect and we'll see what happens, you know? The curiosity, I think, leads to a lot better result than, than the judgment. Definitely makes it difficult to perform and creates a lot of second guessing when you're shooting.

Manisha: And you've also shared how Archers often create a safety net for themselves, Can you expand on that a little bit?

So you've talked about the shooting, the math-ing, the predicting of outcomes, and then having to do it all over again, When do you stop the feedback loop? When it starts getting into thinking too much. How do you do that?

Joe: Sure. I would say my approach is very emotion-based within sport. I think the - all of performance is really driven by the ability to regulate your own emotions and arousal. And there's different stages of that process that can influence the next step and also those elements, right?

The things that you're feeling and how your, your focus is - where you're able to place your attention. And so there's, there's a lot of areas I think where you can address that, right?

So the first one is the trigger: the moment where it creates a type of reaction. Then you have really that buildup. That buildup to the emotional experience itself, experiencing the emotion, the judgment and the subjective evaluation of what you're experiencing.

And then that leads to a new - potentially a new belief or a reinforcement of a trigger. It influences the beginning of the step again. So I think from, from my side, I'm, I'm very big on the expectation side, preparing for what's going to come and acknowledging that things are going to happen.

Like good things, bad things - doesn't really matter. They're going to happen, right? And all those things are going to impact you, right? It'd be very easy to say, okay, I'm going to shoot a seven sometimes and that's going to make me feel this way and I should prepare for that experience. And if you do prepare for that experience, sure the next time you shoot a seven, it's going to be easier to manage sort of that feedback loop.

At the same time, it's no different than you shoot a really great first half, right? Like, an unreal first half, and you're like, holy crap, that was amazing. That is equally as important to prepare for because that's also going to have a whole different set of responses and it creates too much excitement and, and then when you're shooting that second half, all of a sudden that first arrow doesn't, doesn't go very well, you know? And so I think it's really important to, to prepare for those types of things. And as a result, you're able to manage the, the sequence of emotions that, that you're about to experience.

And, and I often use the analogy of: if you're in a restaurant and a plate breaks behind you, a waitress drops a plate or a glass or something like that, what would be your reaction? I mean, most people would just turn around. You'd go, okay, what happened? Your body is having this “Am I safe” moment, which you obviously are, but you go, you see, okay, it's fine. And then you go back and you go back to your dinner, right?

But what I often ask athletes is “what if you knew the plate was going to break”? What if you knew a waitress or a waiter was going to drop a plate in a minute? Would you have the same reaction?

No, you would not have the same reaction. A plate would break. Maybe you turn if you're not exactly sure when it's going to happen, but you're going to go, I knew that was going to happen and you're just going to keep on going. And, I think that's a really easy example to show how you can change the way that you react to things.

And then the sequence of events that comes after. If we just simply prepare for what's to come, it's going to make everything a lot easier to deal with in the moment, good or bad.

So often people think it's a whole doomsday thing, like, oh, I should think of everything terrible, it's going to happen. Sure. But also you can think about all these great things that are going to happen that are going to make it equally as difficult to perform under pressure.

Manisha: Let's talk about looking and previewing the match or the match-ups for brackets during match play.

So you're saying, trying to predict your reaction or diffuse that reaction for the potential of what could happen.

But you know, people inevitably are going to look at the match brackets and there's that imagined stress, like, oh my gosh, if I win this one, I have to go against that person. Whether it be a friend or someone, an idol, or someone that they see, or someone that they've lost to many times in the past.

Talk about that imagined stress versus reality versus diffusing all of that.

Joe: On one side, it's funny because it doesn't really matter who you ever shoot against. If you shoot nine 10s, you most likely are going to win the match. But that's way easier said than done. Right? And obviously, at least until you're getting on stage, you're shooting at the same target most of the time, so you know what they're shooting, right? And so there is some element of competing, right? How fast is your opponent shooting, right? What scores they have. There's lots of little things.

And, that's where maybe some of the tactical stuff comes in that maybe gets overlooked. But yes, the, the looking ahead at your opponents is a very funny thing. it's interesting too. So one question, one side, you can go, what's the point, right? You could say it doesn't matter, but it's very difficult for people to do that, right?

They're trying to map their path to success. Want to know how it's going to play out. And I think diffusing it is incredibly important. And the way that I explain it is that once you compare yourself to any opponent, you've pretty much already failed. And it's pretty simple to explain, right? So you're going to make an evaluation. Are they the same, better, or worse than me, right?

So, if you say they're the same, your reaction winning or losing is going to be fairly neutral. It's going to be like, okay, I won. I lost. There's nothing, there's no super joy of success, right? There's no devastating feeling after the loss. So we can take the neutral sides out of it, right?

So, then let's say you're better and you win. That's exactly what you're supposed to do. Congratulations. And you don't really care. If you're better and you lose, you are absolutely miserable, right? It is devastating, particularly if we're now deeper in a bracket and that person has high expectations for how they should perform.

I mean, it does not feel good to lose to someone who you say, I'm better than them.

Then on the flip side, let's say we're worse and we lose, who cares? That's what we were supposed to do, and I think many people have experienced that within their own countries at a nationals or something, and they shoot against one of the top people and they go, okay, whatever. Like, what are you going to do? I tried my best.

Now what if you shoot and you win the match? I mean, you're going to feel amazing, right? You're going to feel absolutely incredible. "Oh my God, I can't believe I did it!”

But if you pay close attention, there's only one scenario out of all of those where you feel good.

And it's really only if you're an underdog, which is a very valuable thing to leverage if you can. But unfortunately, if you're incredible and ranked top 10 in the world, it's going to be very difficult to peg yourself as an underdog and really buy into that internally. But all that tells you is that once you even make an evaluation of who you're shooting against, you're already not going to feel good.

The odds of feeling good are just incredibly low, especially if you are one of the better Archers of the competition. So really it's, it's once you start that, it's a problem, right?

Now, am I saying never to look? I don't know, because it's going to be impossible to not know at some point. I'll almost guarantee it. Someone's going to tell you. It's going to be announced. Like, you're going to know. And often there's breaks. Like, a day, a couple days. Depends, right? Everyone knows. People talk at dinner and stuff. It's no different than your score. You can't avoid these things. Like, I'm much more of a belief of knowing that it exists versus trying to hide from it.

So, I think it's the same thing at the bracket. You need to be able to just acknowledge that it exists and then remind yourself this is not what success is to me. This is not what matters. It's not going to lead me to feel good at all. It's not going to lead to anything good, unless you're an underdog.

And then maybe we have a different conversation. And then, you know, focusing more on the things that - whatever the plan was or things that allow you to be successful, you know? I could be cliché and just say focus on the process, but it's really figuring out what matters to you.

Maybe it's a plan of how you're going to shoot, maybe there's some tactical things.

Are you going to interact with your opponent? Are you not going to interact with your opponent? How are you going to work with the coach? All those sorts of things and making that more of the emphasis. And then, you know, enjoying the ride and, and see what happens.

I mean, it's a lot of fun to go through a bracket and especially get all the way to the end. It's an amazing feeling, but you know, it's, it's a ride you’ve got to enjoy and you're not going to do it every time. And definitely not if we're evaluating every person that we're going to go up against because you will, in any World Cup stage or World Championships, you are going to go up against someone very good. Like, it is impossible to avoid. There is no easy bracket.

Sure, maybe you have to go against one of the Koreans early, but you'll go up against them, eventually. Like, it doesn’t - it doesn't really matter. And it definitely gets a lot easier if we're not creating that judgment and putting pressure on it as a result of who our opponent is.

Manisha: So you mentioned the "underdog".

Now, just going to give you a little heads up. I might get a little emotional about this because in Korea last year, Team Canada went in as the underdog in the Men's [Recurve] Team matches. And, they were very vocal about the psychology of being an underdog in a World Cup, in the brackets that they were in, the group that they were in, and they came out with a bronze medal.

And you were there, Ron was there. Everybody was cheering. They actually made history for Canada. It was the first Men's [Recurve] team who came away with a World Cup medal. I get emotional because my son was on that team, as you know.

So let's talk about the psychology of the underdog. I know you did allude to it, but moving into and realizing and, and appreciating the underdog position, especially in a team match. Let's talk about that.

Joe: Yes. Well, first off, what a, what a fun moment. That was a great ride. What a fun time going through that bracket and the excitement and everything. I mean, yeah, there’s - for anyone who's been a part of those experiences, I mean, it's amazing. So - and it was awesome to see the, the three of them on stage there with their little bees that they gave them after.

But yeah, I mean, the underdog thing's interesting. If I think back to that experience and in other moments where, you know, I've sort of preached it. A lot of it’s - it's all about believing. Identifying what does it mean to really believe as a team together. And a lot of it's strategizing in a way against who you're facing against and creating a bit of an identity around it.

Whether or not it impacts them or not, almost doesn't matter. However, I - I'd like to believe that at least in that moment, it did impact some of our opponents. I mean, I don't think anyone would've thought that we'd beat India, you know. And, a lot of that has to do with how we're presenting ourselves in the environment, right?

So, a lot of it's like, what's the attitude that we have, right? So often you end up in a place where, okay, if we're underdogs, we believe that we can be successful and it never matters what arrow we shoot. We are always going to just be having a great time.

We're going to walk to that target. We're going to have lots of fun, right We're going to chitchat. We've got a good plan. We're going to enjoy ourselves. Doesn't really matter what we shoot. We're going to show that we can do it anyways, right? And we're not going to feel pressure for it.

And when you have that freedom, you're going to perform well, right? So you start there, right? That's the main objective - can we perform to our capabilities and potentially even overachieve? And in a match, overachieving is possible because it's just such a smaller sample, right?

And everyone is capable of shooting three 10s, right? Like everyone can do it. That's part one. Part two then is, is that influencing your opponent at all? At all? And you'll never really know the answer to that question, but we certainly can plan for it. Right?

And then, you know, in matches when you're not on stage, right? You are shooting at your own pace, right.

And, so there is some level of control there as well of we're feeling really good, we're shooting good arrows and we're finishing before other people. I mean, we're having a time of our life. I don't remember if that's what happened in, in Korea, but just as an example.

And, then there's how is the opponent being, you know? So someone like India, right, when we shot against them, I mean they have pressure, right? At that time, there were World, World Ranking spots and stuff and there are all these sorts of things on the line. I don't remember what the context of pressure was for, for India, but for sure they did not want to lose to us, very early on.

And, so then they're starting to experience more pressure as a result, right? And they're probably doing some of that comparison. Ideally, if I'm the other team, it doesn't matter. I'm not even comparing who we're shooting against. We're following our process, we're sticking to our plan, but as an underdog, you kind of hope that it leaks into them, right?

You, you hope that - look how great of a time we are having. Look how, you know, unaffected I am by a mistake. How unaffected I am by something bad happening. Like, in another sport, right? If I think basketball, hockey, it's like, you can hit, you can hit me, right? There can be a foul called. And like, it does not matter.

When you start to present yourself in that way, it really does make an impact. Archery, it's a lot more subtle, obviously. It's more of the interactions that you're having with each other. How you're approaching each shot, right? The way that we're reacting after, and then you kind of hope that it all, it all comes together.

I think it's belief, joy, and having a good plan. And then you find out if your opponents get affected by it, right? But sometimes they don't. And you can have all that going and you lose, but you know what you're supposed to do, which is why being an underdog is just - there's nothing to lose.

You never have anything to lose in that position, which is why if you can be an underdog, why not leverage it? It's amazing. Although once you get good enough, you're going to have to learn to, to not have that as an option, because soon you'll get good enough where you do have something to lose, right? Maybe it's funding that you get. Maybe it's making a selection.

At some point you're not going to have this freedom. But if you do, I mean, why not use it? It's way more fun.

Manisha: Shout out to Brandon, Eric, and Reece for that win of the bronze medal. I didn't mention all three of them earlier, so I just wanted to say that.

So let's talk about controlling the situation or controlling conditions as much as possible when you're going into a match. What is that all about?

Joe: Yeah, so I mean, it probably ties a little bit into what transpired in Berlin. I mean, I'm a big believer in controlling your environment. It can increase, you know, make you feel more confident, increase your level of focus, manage your arousal.

You know, you might be thinking like, okay, well, control your environment. Like, what am I supposed to do? There's like a million people around me. There's all this weather stuff happening. There's judges. I mean, there's lots that you can't control. And, I think that's when it's about creating a little bit of a bubble and understanding what you're actually doing, right.

I don't know how many times I can say it: Archery is so simple. In some ways it's actually quite boring. I mean, what makes it exciting is the stakes and the way that matches are shot. I mean. Unreal. Right? But most of the time, it's just shooting a bunch of arrows, right? And so I, I think a lot of it's about creating that, you know, whether you are - whoever you are, right?

You're behind the scope and whoever the athlete is, you're creating a bit of a connection, understanding that what do we want our environment to be? Forget about everything else that's happening around us. What do we want it to be about? And starting to, again - it's like almost a bit of an identity, right?

So if it's about joy, great, we're going to have fun, right? If it's about being mindful, we're going to be mindful. Whatever it is, you do it, and then you do it with no regard for other people. You just - because it's the right plan for, for you as an athlete and for us as a team. So again, it could be mixed team, team, individual, it doesn't matter.

You're going to do it. And, if that means you want to talk about how you feel when everyone else is listening, then you're going to do that. And we're not going to care. And, we're just going to be ourselves. And, I think that's when you start to, at least at a small scale, control the environment. I mean, I'm sure you have questions about Berlin.

There's lots I could say there of where there is a little bit more influence on trying to control the crowd and things like that. But, when you're in control of things, things are predictable. When things are predictable, you're not surprised. So you're not having these crazy emotional reactions and you're executing a plan exactly how you want to and you're enjoying the process, right?

So that's what you want to experience. Obviously, I've given a little bit of an example of what that could look like. It all depends, but you really want to just create a situation where you know what's going to happen, right? And you're ready for it and you're going to have a lot of fun doing it.

If there's ever a moment again where somehow the opponent's affected by it, cool. But that's not really the main - the main objective, right? No different when we - the team matches, and no different than with Eric and Berlin. The main objective is not to mess people up. The main objective is to create an environment where the athlete is going to perform at their best.

And a bonus of that is sometimes that makes people uncomfortable because we are in control of the environment, right? And, whether India felt that or any of the other teams that we faced in Korea, I couldn't tell you. You'd have to ask them and would they even admit it? Who knows? You know? But we felt good and, and that's what matters.

Manisha: So, just to explain for our listeners and viewers: before teams go out onto the line, during matches, depending on where they are, there's a staging area and that is where Archers and their support, with whoever is in the box, that they can talk and they can start to control the situation as they need.

You've been in many staging areas. Aside from Canada, what other examples, you don't need to name the countries, but what, what other examples have you seen where a team or an individual has started to try to control the narrative or, or bring in gamesmanship?

Joe: Hmm. Yeah, it's a good question. I like how you brought up the call room because I'm a big believer of that's where it all starts, right?

If you're shooting a match play thing, I mean, the performance begins then. It probably begins before then. Really, it begins once you start thinking about it. But, that is a moment that's probably overlooked. My experience in a call room is most people are just quiet and focused and doing their thing.

I mean....

Manisha: I just want to say too, it really depends on how it’s - how it's organized. Like, is it long with seats on either side so teams are facing each other, or is it open on one side and teams are kind of facing out and not facing each other. So there - all of that I think plays into it. And I'm sorry I interrupted you there, but...

Joe: That's okay.

Manisha: …that area really can be indicative of what could potentially happen and create its own scenarios.

Joe: Sure, yeah. I mean, definitely. Sometimes the space is super confined. Sometimes it's more open and sure it can change the dynamic. No, no different than being on a really crowded bus or having a nice empty seat to yourself.

Right? I mean, my experience is I think there are archers who are in there and they're following their plan and maybe they're listening to music or they're doing deep breathing, or they're talking to their coach. I wouldn't say anyone's trying to hijack the room. Like, more often than not, it's maybe they're doing something, but often they're sitting there watching what's happening, right?

So, at the Olympics, like, it's a little bit more organized and structured. Just, you know, the Olympics, so everything's just a little bit more crazy, and so as a result, sometimes there's a bunch of people in there as - and like people are just - you know, they're sitting, watching, waiting to shoot.

So, yeah, I mean, what was your other aspect of the question? Oh, gamesmanship. Right? Okay. Yes. So yeah, call room. I think under-utilized. Should be leveraged. It's a great opportunity to really start to take control of the experience.

And, it's kind of like, I don't know, for any of the students out there, you're taking a test and people around you are talking about, “oh, did you study this”? “Did you study that”? I mean, that stuff's never helpful to you, you know. And, it's kind of like that though.

Like, there, there is that element of influence, good or bad, however you want to go about it, that happens in that moment. From the gamesmanship side, I would say I’ve - although I think maybe as Canada, we've utilized it in the call room, I don't think I've really experienced that.

Maybe that's because we were doing it. I would say it's more common - like, the most common gamesmanship is probably when you're shooting matches outside of a stage and how you decide to interact with your opponent. Walking to and from the target and how you and your coach interact? On the line again, I think there are some countries who do not even bother trying to do any of this stuff, and they're just very successful and it's no problem. They just take themselves out of it.

But for sure, there's athletes who know who they're shooting against and maybe they, they want them to be more comfortable, so they start schmoozing them a little bit. Right? And maybe they feel that, okay, I'm going to be in sort of the power position.

Maybe it's even little things: if you start a conversation with someone and then you know, you're still talking at the target and you just start walking back without talking to them, right?

Like, anything that's a little bit unpredictable. I wouldn't say I'm the expert in this area because I'm not an Archer and I'm not the one doing the walking. I definitely have suggestions of how we should go about it. But more often, it's the same. It's we're doing our thing and we do not care who you are.

And maybe for some, that bothers them because they have a big ego; or maybe for some, they don't care because they're also trying to do their thing. But I would say that's where I would see other countries bringing in a little bit more. That would probably be it. And maybe how your teammates celebrate for you in a team round or something.

I think there's some countries who are very loud and cheer, even if it's, you know, a bad arrow and stuff like that. Sometimes it's staff. It's not even the Archer actually shooting. So I don’t know. That's what I would say.

Manisha: And let's talk about the art of Archery versus the science of Archery.

Joe: Sure.

Manisha: What, what is it that makes this such a dichotomy, but creates potentially such a flow.

Joe: Yeah. Well I think the science aspect is you're going to have perfect form and then you're going to shoot the arrow. And if there's no wind, it's a 10 every time. And then if there's wind, you make an adjustment and it's a 10. I think that's the science.

I think the art of it is figuring it out. Like, sometimes the wind is unpredictable. Sometimes it is just difficult to do it. How can you find a way to shoot a good arrow even when things aren't right? And again, I'm not an Archer. I don't want to speak for, for everyone, but I think there are times where even - it’s that last split second where something changes and can you find a way to shoot it anyways.

It's something that I think Ron, he talks a lot about not letting down. Just shoot your shot, right? Shoot the arrow no matter what. Find a way to do it because when you start second guessing, you start judging the motor control and that's becomes more and more difficult.

And I think that's the art: finding a way that even if the technique's not perfect, even if the conditions aren't perfect, even if you don't feel good, can you still shoot the arrow? Because that is what's going to happen at some point. It's not going to be, if it was science, everyone would be shooting 690s, having a great time, right?

And, indoors, a lot of people can, because there's nothing to it. It's just you shoot the arrow and it lands on the target. You’ve got to find a way to be able to do it. And, in a match, there's going to be lots of different things at play and your ability to find a way to hit the middle no matter what.

I think it's probably oversimplified when I say that and hopefully, you know, my experience talking with Archers, I think it makes sense. And, hopefully people understand what I'm saying, but, yeah, you're not going to be perfect, so - but that doesn't mean you can't shoot a 10. Like, just like how when you're perfect, it doesn't always go in the middle.

Some flexibility in, I guess, your technique and everything is a bit more of the art.

Manisha: What does, or who does a narrative serve when it comes to sport in general, but especially Archery? Who are these narratives for? Who does that even serve?

Joe: Well, I'd probably say sports fans. Not really anyone competing. Narratives are really something that sports writers create so that you can have this amazing story. And, there's so many great examples in professional sports and if you live in Toronto, you're consumed by them because it's a pretty big sports city.

But, around the world it's no different even, you know, with some of the stuff in soccer and things like that. But the thing is that narratives are just these false realities, right? They're not necessarily true. They're stories that we're telling ourselves to create meaning of an experience.

And, if we're just going by the classic narrative that exists, right, like again, someone who's like, “I have target panic”, “I suffer from target panic", and you're sucked into this narrative. Okay, good luck. It's not going to get any better really. If you're someone who’s - I, again, “I never make it past this round”, or when it's that last arrow in this moment, “I never perform”.

Does that narrative serve any value to you? And is it even true? Because something is only true until it's not. You only don't shoot 660s until you finally do, right? Like, you can have all these barriers, but at some point it only takes one time. And, the odds are - they change all the time.

As much as there's lots of control in Archery, you also have no control of anything. Shoot the arrow and see what happens. I mean, wherever it lands, it's going to land. You can do your best again, if you could be perfect, you would be. So I think when people or athletes are getting caught up in those types of narratives, I mean, I think it's more about redefining the story for yourself.

Like, what is this experience for you? Why does this matter? What meaning does it bring and what does it represent in the growth of you as a person and an athlete? I think that's when you start to get more value. And by challenging the narratives and switching that way, it also makes things a lot easier.

We're not as consumed by these, I don't know, check boxes, these goalposts, that are very silly. At the end of the day, if you don't win, you don't win. You don't win a medal. You don't win a medal. You know? And, of course there's some bare minimums for some people of getting carded and receiving funding or making a team or having the opportunity. Totally get it. And, Olympic selection spots, yeah, I understand it's challenging.

But also the narrative can't be like, “I never know how to do it in this moment”. It just doesn't serve any value. It serves a lot of values for sports fans. Right?

And if you look at the Olympics, right, and they're shooting matches and anytime there was a shoot off, and I was involved in one of them, the commentator is all in on the narratives. And they're saying it to everyone. It's crazy! They're bumping the heartbeat, right? They love doing that in Archery. Sure. It makes it so much more fun for a fan.

And, when you're watching, you're like, this is incredible, right?

From my perspective, there's really not much like it in sports. Like, your job is to shoot, let's say, they shoot a 9, or even they shoot a 10. And, you have to shoot an even better arrow, right? A better 10. I mean, and it's one arrow!

And that can mean Olympic medal. I mean, that is amazing! Amazing! Like, maybe a putt in golf compares, but I don't even think so. I really think it's sort of in a league of its own. But they feed the narratives. So it's fun for a fan.

But if, if you're up there and you're listening to the commentator and you're just buying into it and you're going, oh man, can I do it? Does that really help you? Right? It's taking you out of the moment into a reality that I don't even know if it's true. And I don't even know if we could ever prove that it's true.

It's just we as humans create meaning of things. And in sports is - it's very common to do that. And, so I think it's important.

So the long answer to your question, and maybe the short version is: it's not for athletes. It's for sports fans and athletes should, they should be thinking about what the story means to them and not worried about some superficial narrative that's created as a result of just sports existing in life.

Manisha: One of the narratives though, or one of the things to overcome is "fake it 'til you make it". Is that beneficial? Is it unrealistic? “Fake it 'til you make it.” How does it play in Archery?

Joe: People love saying that, but it is not beneficial. I don't know, maybe "fake it 'til you make it" gets you through a job interview or something. You know, something short term.

But, that's just going to lead to you feeling like an imposter at some point because you're just pretending to be someone, right? So there, there's moments where it can be valuable, but the amount of people that think it's like, put a smile on your face and get going, I mean, going to get you through something very non-consequential, very simple, or a, a very quick pressure moment.

But, it's more about actually doing the actions that make you feel like you're that identity or that person. Like the, the cliché or catchphrase would be, "be it to believe it". Like who's the person that you want to be? What would that person do? What are the types of things that person would do? And then action those things on a regular basis.

You are now going to feel good about yourself. You are going to feel confident. You're going to feel like you are capable, which is maybe the most important thing - that you actually can achieve something much more valuable than, than faking it, right?

No one wants to be an imposter. No one enjoys that feeling. And it's inevitable, if you're going through life going, yeah. I'm just going to fake it and, and make it work.

Manisha: How can the authenticity contribute to a flow state? We haven't mentioned flow yet.

Joe: Sure. Yeah, flow's an interesting topic. There's lots out there. I, I think for me, from my pragmatic, logical stance, right? Your job is to perform to your capabilities regardless of the context. So you're trying to just be yourself, right, which in a way is authentic.

And, so for me, it's, it's fairly logical. If you are simply just being yourself, putting yourself out there, shooting the arrows, being natural, you are going to be more likely to have this experience that someone would call flow, right? But it's not something you can control.

It's not something that you can just, again, click a button and be like, I'm dialed in. It's not how it works. But you want to create the - you want to follow the set of steps that are going to lead you into that environment and that state. More often than not, I mean, that's often most of the stuff in sport, and especially from the mental side.

Nothing's a guarantee. So you're constantly just trying to create the circumstances where it happens more often. And so being yourself, being authentic, I mean, how could that not lead to that, that circumstance? You know?

There's probably lots you could say of the science behind it and the brain chemistry and things like that, but I think that's more of the practical piece and allowing you to be more in the moment, right?

Being present. When you're not judging. When you're not criticizing yourself. When you're not, whatever, creating stories for yourself in a moment. Like, it could be anything, right? And you're just simply being there. I mean, that's when you're going to have the best chance of just performing, right? And again, to your capabilities.

No one's asking you to be anything that you're not. They're just asking you - really, no one's asking anything. Your job is just go there and shoot an arrow and do it how you normally are able to do it. And, if you're really good, I mean, you're going to have a good time. You're going to go on a run. You're probably going to qualify well, every time. You're probably going to have a bunch of good matches.

And, if you're not good enough, I mean, you're going to get better because there's lots of ways to, to train and improve, right? So - and everyone who's doing amazing is doing the exact same thing. Everyone's trying to be better and be the best person they can be and then put yourself out there and be natural.

Manisha: Let's talk about something. It, it's kind of a, I don’t know, a phenomena or something where when an Archer needs to shoot a match against a friend, things happen. Strange things happen. I have seen where two friends will shoot against each other and sometimes the stronger Archer will actually lose 6-0, sometimes. What's that all about?

Joe: I don't know if I can explain the answer to that exact example, but, yeah, I mean, it definitely is a bit of an interesting thing that exists, right?

It's - you’re trying to build a team in Archery, but then at some point they become your competitors. And whether that's nationally, right? So, you're competing for spots to go to events right? Or, you're competing for funding, or even internationally you end up in the same bracket, but then you're going into a team round and you're working together. It's interesting, right? And I think, again, I can't speak for everyone, but for sure animosity can be developed.

Again, I can't speak for everyone. I just know from my own, not even experience, just from the type of conflict that can exist as a result of that, that circumstance. Often, you'll have four people at an event and then who gets selected to even shoot the team, right?

There's all these different little dynamics and I think it's just important that if you're in that type of situation, you're developing a culture within the team where people are still able to be supportive of each other. They're still able to collaborate and even when they're shooting against each other, they can still be teammates.

I think every situation is different. Sometimes teammates hate each other, then they shoot against each other and it’s - it’s on. And for a coach is there - they have to kind of go, “okay”. You know, I think some teams probably take the approach of just let them shoot and you're not really there supporting anyone in particular.

If you're, you know, you have more resources or staff, maybe you've got two people, right? So, you've got someone behind each person, and maybe it's a friendly thing. Maybe they are talking, maybe you decide to treat it as a, you know, more of, okay, we're just shooting for fun like we always do. Or, maybe you're trying to be super competitive.

I would like to be in an environment where, you know, the athletes are all trying to be their best. I'd probably ask them, “do we want to bring some gamesmanship into here or do we want to just like do it as normal?”

I can't say I've run into that situation personally too often. I somehow don't end up on that side of the bracket where there's two of them. And, I've been around many times, even just with Canada. I mean, we're shooting with each other all the time. So you kind of just, I think, fall into that routine more than anything.

And, if your shooting environment is hostile, you're probably going to be hostile in that moment. And, if you don't like each other, that's what it's always going to be like. But if every time you guys shoot together, on a regular basis, you're, you're chit-chatting and you're hanging out and you're talking, I mean, it's going to be the same thing.

Like, they - it's not going to be the first time you shoot a match against your teammate. And, you're probably doing it more often than not. You probably shoot more matches against your teammates than you do against any other person. I don't know if I can explain why sometimes someone loses or sometimes someone wins.

I think it's potentially, - probably all comes down to just their own expectations and maybe it's a comparison and they are competing against each other.

And, maybe there's a real narrative there: Okay, I need to prove that I'm better than this person. And maybe it's just a fake thing of you just want to be your best.

Maybe you have a grudge against a particular person. Again, there's lots of team dynamic aspects there, and then you get an - you get an opportunity competing against them and whatever your relationship is, I think probably shows up and whatever plan you make is what it is.

Manisha: All right, let's talk about Berlin.

Joe: Sure.

Manisha: So you came to notoriety pretty much instantly when at Berlin, so 2023, you were in “the box”. And just to familiarize what "the box" is, it is a literal box on the ground where a coach or a Mental Performance Consultant, someone is in the back, behind the team or behind the Archer.

So they offer assistance of some sort, not necessarily.... Well, it can come in different forms.

So, you were in the box for Eric Peters of Canada during the match against Mete Gazoz from Türkiye, and you were expressive and supporting your athlete to a plan. And the word or the phrase, "the plan" kept up coming up. There was a lot of contention about the way that you were supporting your Archer.

So my question is: how did you feel about that? Where did it start?

Joe: Sure. I think as evidenced by my smile, I mean, I feel pretty good about the whole thing. It was a very fun experience, a very meaningful experience.

Eric was very successful. There's really, it's like - it was a great time. You know, if he had won gold, that would've been wild. That would've been wild. But no, it was such a, such a great experience.

I mean, where it started? I mean, when we talk about making a plan, everything's very practical at first, right?

We were deciding, okay, who goes behind what Archer while we're shooting? And, again, we don't have that many staff and there's this many athletes. So, you know, we just, we made a decision, right? Okay. I've been working with Eric for a really long time. Ron can manage multiple targets. Simple decision, right?

Eric's over here by himself, other Archers are over here. And, so he's going to manage the multiple targets. I'm going to manage the one and it just works out and makes sense, right?

So that's where this all starts is - it's very practical. If we were in a different situation, maybe we would've made a different decision.

And, then obviously, Eric had a pretty good run in, in matches. And, you know, we were - I think we were just having a good time and doing a lot of the things that we were doing on stage, I think, you know, how I'm being characterized, it's a bit inaccurate, although I get it.

People are really just focusing more on the rambunctious side and sort of the hyping up the crowd and, you know, then World Archery made  that video and, you know, they're pegging me as controversial and distracting people. And, I mean, I think some of it's a bit unfair because a lot of what we were doing was just noting, which is a very simple skill of simply just acknowledging what's happening.

We are taking control of the environment and we're enjoying the experience. I mean, you spend all this time, and especially in Canada, you have to do a lot of it indoors during like the winter stuff.

So, you spent all this time shooting all these arrows and it's so boring. You're shooting all these arrows every week and now you're going to be in an environment like this and you're not going to have fun? Why? Why?

I think, you know - Ron and I are big believers in that, so, so all through the matches, I mean, even there, am I screaming and doing anything crazy? No, but I mean, me and Eric are controlling our environment. We're having fun. We're, we're implementing the skills that we've developed and we're acknowledging random things like, oh, it's windy. Maybe it was different music that was playing and I'm just having fun being behind him.

Like, it was way more low key I would say. But you know, that's when it started.

And then obviously, he makes it to top eight and now we have a new decision to make. So I pretty much, once he was done - I forget they had to go do some picture or interview or something, right? Just like for Instagram and - okay, here's the top eight or whatever.

And that's when Ron and I already started talking about, “Okay, so who should go behind him?” Right? Like, what should we do? And then I would say the plan just sort of evolved over like a - I forget how many days it was, three days or something. And we just kept talking about, so if I was up there, what would it be like?

And we - and really started to buy into one - an environment where Eric would experience a tremendous amount of joy and be fun and be relaxed. And then also an environment where we're just in control of the situation, where we don't really have to worry about anything happening because what I've done is already is so out of character that we're going to be able to predict it and we're so comfortable and everyone else is kinda like, what's going on?

And again, I think Ron and I are both the big believer in enjoying the experience, so, although there's very practical reasons of why we were leaning towards, okay, maybe I should go on the box and the value that it brings to Eric, we also wanted it to be fun. So like the plan sort of evolved and everything I did up there was almost entirely scripted.

And I think our biggest regret is we didn't write it down because it's just a show how scripted everything was. Even the day before, like, so we're talking on the train and we're coming up with lots of different things and, you know, I come from like a summer camp background. A lot of what I did there is stuff I do, you know, when I used to work at summer camp, hyping up the crowd and stuff. He said like, oh, what if I come and bow to you and stuff and be - oh, that'd be pretty fun. You know?

So, it was just all these little things that create elements and even we watched, I think the women's team matches the day before and we actually sat in the environment and then I'm going like, “oh man, you get to walk up with like all the fans right there”. And I was like, “what if I gave them all high fives” and did stuff like that and like, like all these simple things.

Like, it was just all so scripted. I mean, the long story short is we obviously made that decision.

I think the other element too, which is maybe overlooked, is that we were shooting against the, the "Dutchies" and Ron had just been coaching them not too long ago, right? Won a medal in Tokyo, with Steve [Wijler]. That also was like a factor too, right? So it wasn't just, okay, so Part A, we want Eric to be successful. Part B, it's fun. And, Part C is if Ron's up there, does that create a level of comfort for them? Right? It's like his old colleague, like they've spent so much time together between the coach and the athlete, right?

So that was another element that we had to consider too. And even in the call room, I mean, if Ron's in there and now they're all speaking in Dutch, what is that going to do for Eric? Right? Versus if I'm in the call room, right? There's going to be less of that potential interaction between the two of them, right?

So that was something we also consider because we really were just preparing for one match. Like, we weren’t - sure we wanted to win, but all you can plan for is we're facing Steve now and this is what we're going to do. And, so those were kind of all the elements. And the long story short is yes, obviously we made the decision to go with me and we felt like it would be a great time and all these things just evolved.

Like, even the Sjef [van den Berg] thing, like Sjef's, someone who I've gotten to know as a person, right? I didn't know him as an Archer. He's helped out with Canada. And I guess even more context, I met Ron for the first time in February and Berlin I think was in July, right?

So I think it speaks to the relationship we developed. And even Sjef, that was the first time I had met Sjef also. And so I, I knew Sjef as a person and we knew he was commentating and that was a whole other thing. You know, Sjef's helped us out. He's gotten to the point, like, should we tell him?

And then we decided - when we made the decision, finally, we really wanted it to be locked down. We didn't want anyone to know, not even anyone from Canada. Like, everyone kind of knew, within Canada at least, what we were thinking about, but we really, once we made the decision, it was like no one knows.

And we thought it'd be more fun if we didn't tell Sjef. All of it was scripted. I was going to walk on the stage. I'm going to give all the fans high five. I'm going to look in the camera. I'm going to say, "I love you, Sjef!" I'm going to tell everyone and "thank you, everybody".

Then I'm going to go look, “I don't know where Ron is”. I'm going to find Ron. I'm going to bow to Ron, then I'm going to go in the box. Like, everything was scripted and everything I - we told Eric the night before too, right? So, whether he remembers it or whatever, it doesn't really matter. It was, “here's what's going to happen”. And I think I even said to him, which may be is some of the criticism I get, is that "if I do my job really well, they're not even going to care that you're up there”.

And that's not like a slight on him. It's more of a "no stress, man". We're going to have a great time and I'm going to take all the heat. You're not going to have to worry about anything. Was there a risk there? For sure. I think if we lost, I don't know if I'd have any fans, but, obviously it, it went well. So, yeah.

And there's so many other nuances to it, little things. Even before the match, we were just talking, Eric's executing his plan and me and Ron are having a great time and I'm telling him about how Steph Curry would take these three pointers and turn around right after. And he's like, “what?”

And yeah, I know he's from the Netherlands, so he doesn't get it. So I'm showing him all these videos of Steph Curry. And then we were sort of joking, like, what if I am on stage and I close my eyes when Eric shoots an arrow. Like, that'd be hilarious. So, you know, I did it one time.

Almost everything was, was just so predictable, even to the point of we didn't want anyone to know who was going to be in the box until the absolute last minute.

So even to the point where Ron and I both walked up to the call room and only at the point where we could switch, did Ron leave. We really didn't want anyone to know that was going to happen. Even the judge. The judge asked us multiple times: “who’s going to be in the box?”

And we said, we haven't decided yet. And, we made him come back. And, then we even did a fake Rock, Paper, Scissors game just to do it in front of the judge. Like, we're going to - we're going to play for it. And we did a Rock, Paper, Scissors. I obviously won because it was the plan. And, and then, you know, now the judge puts me down and then we, we do the walk. Right?

So yeah, there's so much. I think that's how I would say it got created, but almost everything I did up there: one, it was scripted. Two, it was not about distracting an Archer. I did not ever say anything when they were shooting. Not even once. There's lots of video evidence to prove that.

But of course, if someone were to have gotten distracted by me, I mean, no different than the underdog thing. Good for us, you know? Is that the goal? No. And, and the people that we're shooting against, like, why would they get distracted? They're good enough, you know? But obviously it, it worked out in our favour. And, it was a crazy weather day too, which I also think worked out just in Eric's favour of being able to, to shoot in those types of conditions fairly effectively. And, we just had a great time doing it.

So I, I don't know if you have any follow up questions, but it really started from a practical place and then just from our own perspective of really bringing joy to an experience and then the skills of, you know, managing expectations and mindfulness concepts with Eric.

I mean, all of it just sort of came together and that day was about having a great time. I think Ron and I were talking about no matter how Eric feels, we're going to be like his big brothers and this whole day we're going to have, we're going to show him, no matter what happens, man, we're going to have a great day.

Like, it just doesn't matter. It's going to be fun. You're going to do your job. We're going to do our job and we're going to have fun doing it. And then obviously we won the first match and, and that's when it was like, now we're having fun. Right?

At that point, we're validated for what we're doing. We're getting some good laughs for sure.

Now also, the - I guess they're judges, whatever, the people in the call room who work there, now they're into it. And, so then they're like giving us paper towel to like dry off and stuff like that. You know, it almost works in our favour more. Then the fans are excited for us to come back out.

And, yeah, we even made Eric carry both his bows so that I can high five the crowd. I don't know if we told him that directly, but I think, I think we said: "can you carry both of them?" He said, "yes". I said, "it's part of the plan". He said, "okay". Like, that's the type of, you know, way that we function.

It’s - we are executing this plan. Do you trust the plan? I trust you guys. Great. Let's do it. No problem. And if we said this is part of the plan, he'd go, no problem. And, so I think there's a lot of great things that were there that maybe get lost in, you know, the, the silly stuff of it. All the different things that I did.

But again, a hundred percent of it was stuff we thought about before. What if I celebrated like this? Wouldn't that be fun? You know? And, yeah, in some ways maybe it's good that we didn't win because I'm not sure what I would’ve - what I would've done, and probably better for everyone and for us. Yeah.

Manisha: Archery is a quiet sport. People who come from soccer or whatever else, you know, even in golf, people cheer and they clap very politely. So to have a little bit of excitement  - you got a lot of support from people who enjoyed those moments of excitement and everybody could actually express themselves about how they excited they were.

And it seemed like it kind of bubbled up. I was watching that day, as many Canadians were. And, when you said, "I love you, Sjef", it panned to, I don't know if you've seen the, the actual video, it panned over to Sjef who was doing it remotely, and he just, you could see, did I just hear that? Is that what he just said?

And everybody just was a little bit on edge, like what just happened there? Did he really? But, then as the fervour built, so many people have embraced it. Yes, there were some criticisms, but a lot of people missed that from other sports. And what you did brought in another component that I, I wish was more part of Archery.

I mean, it is at, say, the higher levels like the Olympics. You know, you've got people politely clapping, but you've got these matches where everyone's quiet and then they burst into joy or something, and then they're quiet again. Everyone has their own opinion about that.

But you brought something very special and your celebrity actually was made more apparent this year at Arizona because people remembered, even though it's almost, well, two years later. Reece said people would see you because I think this was the first USAT you'd been to?

Joe: Yeah.

Manisha: And people would see you: “Oh my gosh, that's Joe, that's, that's, that's the guy from Canada”  Did you know people were surprised to see you in Arizona?

Joe: Well, I guess before that, first I'll just say like, yeah, for sure I did something different and when I went home and, obviously eventually [World Archery] made this video, which for sure everyone I know has seen.

But, my cousin just put it simply: “You're the Happy Gilmore of Archery". And I never thought about it that way, but it's kind of, in a way it is what it is.

And you know, I'm glad lots of people enjoyed it for sure. Some controversy, but there's no doubt, I mean, lots of people asked to, take pictures of me after that. Until we lost, it was all positive. Once we lost, I started to get a couple negative comments.

But, but yeah, Arizona would be the most recent experience of people recognizing me and stuff. It's kind of funny because I'm just a regular guy, you know, who’s - yeah, I've got skin in the game in Archery, but this is not my life.

I did not grow up as an Archer. I got brought into the sport. I enjoy working here and you know, who knows how long I'll work here for. Maybe a super long time. Maybe it is my identity soon. But for now it's, you know, there's people who are competing internationally who will recognize me.

And I just think it's hilarious. Right? Like, one interaction I had was someone introduced themselves to me and I just said, "Oh, it's nice to meet you, but I've also seen you around, you know, so it's no big deal". And they're like, "Yeah, but I was kind of like nervous to come and say hi".

I'm like: "What are you nervous about?" “You're nervous coming to me? Who do you think I am?” So those experiences have happened, but yeah, so it was odd. I guess to your, to your question, like, I'm not - I'm not expecting that to happen.

I think more of - maybe people brought up the Olympics because also, although it wasn't quite the same, I, I still did some things on, on stage at the Olympics that got some attention and so that almost surprised me more. It's like, oh, we're still talking about Berlin.

It was that, that significant for people, but no, more often than not, no one who actually dislikes me or has said anything negative has really said it to my face.

I've just heard it, you know, through very close channels. Or, they've stated it publicly or something. But like almost anyone who comes up to me is excited. I'd say fans are number one, all in. Archers are pretty close to all in. And the coaches are the ones who maybe have the problem with me.

But yeah, anyways, it was, it was interesting to have some of those interactions in Arizona. I'm sure I'll have more of those interactions in the future.

Manisha: So we have talked a lot about you at the high performance level. This is sort of where you live, but if someone wanted to bring on a Mental Performance Coach for someone who is not at a high performance, say in the development stage or even before that, how do they do that?

What are the concepts? Because you're talking quite high level. You've talked - you're talking to people that have been part of mental performance coaching and training potentially for years and years or even a decade or more. So, they have evolved. How does someone start the mental performance journey?

Joe: Yeah, I mean, probably starts with finding someone. But honestly, you could probably start with just like reading some books. I mean, I think that's how a lot of people get into different things. And, I know for me, I was watching sports. I was studying psychology at university, and you know, I just started to, okay, what, what's the deal with this?

Like, obviously, it's a thing and then, you know, there's people who write books about it and you read some of those. And, so I say that's probably the very simplest way to get exposed or go watch some YouTube videos. And, and these days with the stuff with, you know, mental health becoming a higher priority for people and more valued and getting more attention, I mean, there's lots more stuff related to mental performance out there.

I think that's a good place to start. And then, yeah, if you really want to do the work, I mean, it's hard to do it totally on your own. It just is. And, and you know, even for someone like me or another specialist, you can practice what you preach all you want, but sometimes you need someone to challenge a thought or to really help you think a different way.

It's, it's just hard. It's hard to do on your own. And if it wasn’t, every self-help book would be the best book ever written, you know? But people have difficulties executing these things. And I think a lot of the sports psychology stuff is incredibly simple to say and it's hard to do.

Like, it's just hard to master. And so I think about from - how do you help someone who's new? I mean, in some ways, it's the exact same how you're helping someone who's doing it at a high level. Like, you are just teaching them the simplicity of it all. Mastering it is challenging and takes time and sometimes takes being put into different environments.

And, so I think that's how I would maybe start. Start by reading a book. See what you learn. See what sort of concepts you hang onto. Maybe there's something in there that you hook onto and you're like, you know what, I'm going to just try this and see how it feels. And often the people who buy into it feel validated when they try something like that.

And then just let the journey take care of itself. I mean, you know, people use these clichés, like “trust the process”, “live with the results”. Okay, well I could say that to someone who's six years old and I could say it to someone who's 35. It's the same thing. Obviously, you break it down a bit differently for someone who's younger or newer, but if someone who's 25, has never learned this stuff before, I'm going to break it down the same.

And, sometimes it doesn't even get any more complicated. It's just, it's difficult to really master it. It's just hard. And it is a bit of an art, I would say. The science is clear, but the art is, there's nuances. You have to really be able to be aware of your body, what's going on. And yeah, it's almost hard to put into words.

Manisha: It is a journey that you have to figure out. It's a journey of self-growth and development and trying to be the best person you can be. Are there any books that you could just off the top of your head, or if not, some authors that you would recommend for someone who's just getting into this whole idea?

Joe: Sure. Well, there's tons of books out there. I'll give a shout out to the book that I first read, which was, How Champions Think by Bob Rotella. https://www.simonandschuster.ca/books/How-Champions-Think/Bob-Rotella/9781476788654

And if somehow I butchered that title, I'm embarrassed because I've, I've told people about that book many times. He works with a lot of golfers and, and that was one of the first books that I read that got me into sports psych.

So, I think there's lots of value in there. And, there’s still things that I remember from that book that, I, I take into my own practice - stuff around belief and really having faith and things like that. There was a whole chapter on it in the book and being optimistic, and so I'd recommend that one.

But for sure you type in "sports psych" books, you're, you're going to find a lot of different ones out there.

Manisha: You do work with teams quite often, but do you take on individual clients as well?

Joe: Yeah, for sure. I am, we could say open for business. I mean, anyone who, who feels that they could use my support, I am happy to support them.

Doesn't really matter where you live, what country. Most of the stuff I do anyways, like a lot of practitioners because of travel, is over Zoom anyways. Even if we're in Canada, for those who don't live here, it's a huge country. So people are very spread apart as it is.

So no, yeah, I can work with any individual team, performer, artist, business person - anyone who really thinks that they can benefit and feels that, you know, me in particular, like they, they want value, right? A lot of it is finding the person that you feel I can best help you and you have trust with. So, yeah, anyone who feels like they can get that from me, no problem. Happy to help.

Manisha: How would they find you or contact you?

Joe: Sure. I guess, maybe we will leave an email or something, and maybe the, the episode notes or whatever.

But, reach, reach out to me. I think we can leave my contact thing. Maybe soon I'll have a website that you can, you can go to. It'd be a bit of a flex, I could say Google me and you can probably find me. But you know, I - you can find me on social media, like I have a LinkedIn page. You could find me on Instagram.

I mean, many people have before. I'm sure people can find a way to find me again. But, I can, you know, leave a link or whatever, with you or an email and people could reach out to me there.

Manisha: So I usually wrap up the episode with a really bad joke, but you travel a ton.

Can you share your, your best travel tip or if you're willing, share something that you never leave home without when you're traveling. And they could be the same thing.

Joe: Sure. Okay. Best travel tip. Oh, so many. I'd say often the one that comes to my mind when you say that is the sleeping on the plane thing.

And I would say really prioritizing the whole light manipulation of it. When, if you're doing a jet lag protocol and it needs to be dark, get an eye mask. Make it dark. And I'd say the same thing, get a really good sleep setup on a plane. Get a really nice pillow. Get a really good eye mask, invest in whatever it costs, really, it doesn't matter. And, you're going to have a great sleep.

I'd say maybe that's the best thing.

And then one thing I never leave home without, I mean, I'm going to say something super simple and not even related to travel, is Burt's Bee's lip balm. I'm slightly addicted. So it...

Manisha: Any flavour in particular?

Joe: No, no, just the basic one.

None of the flavours. The, the simple stuff. But no, I, I never - really, there's always one in my pocket probably a hundred percent of the time. So, I guess shout out to Burt's Bees. I'd love some free lip balm. But, but no, that, that would be there. I could probably give you a travel related example, but that one, I leave my house and it's in my pocket. https://www.burtsbees.ca/categoryproduct/lip-care/lip-balm/

Manisha: Great. Thanks for those.

Thank you, Joe, for all the information. I know we, we kinda loaded this episode with a ton of information and concepts. If anyone has any questions, we will have all of Joe's contact information. Ask him about it.

This is the Archery Parent Podcast. That is Joe. I am Manisha. Thanks so much for joining us and we will see you again next time.

OUTRO:

Thanks for listening to this episode of The Archery Parent Podcast. This show is for Archery parents by an Archery Parent. You can find more episodes at archeryparentpodcast.ca. While there, sign up for our newsletter and check out our blog.

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The Archery Parent Podcast is hosted and produced by me, Manisha. Reece Wilson-Poyton and Elissa Foley are our resident Archery consultants and contributors. Fact checking by Manisha, Reece and Elissa. Our theme music is The Stranger by Wooden Flowers, Michael Menart, and Giant Metal Crickets.

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I'm Manisha of the Archery Parent Podcast. We're doing this one arrow at a time.